Interview between Chris Mathews and Cardinal Bergoglio before he was
elected Pope Francis. He is a
refreshing original. Mathews hated the idea that the Cardinal
blamed him and his ilk for the loss of freedom, poverty, and welfare
state problems. Mathews couldn't handle it and so terminated the
interview; it was never aired. Even (especially) if you are not a Catholic, you will be pleasantly surprised. Cardinal Bergoglio lived under Pres. Juan Peron, Argentina's dictator, and he understands the brainwashing of absolute rule, corruption, and
This Pope, is a breath of fresh air!!
THE NEW POPE - quite a man of principle
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2013 12:51:42
CAMERA ON / BEGIN TRANscript
MATHEWS: Welcome Cardinal.
BERGOGLIO: Thank you. Happy to speak with you.
MATHEWS: Well, let me get into it directly. Last conclave, you were
almost elected Pope. Can this happen again?
BERGOGLIO: What? That I will almost be the Pope, again?
MATHEWS: No. Will you be the next Pope?
BERGOGLIO: Friend, I'm only jesting with you. I understand the
question. I will not be the next Pope.
MATHEWS: Why not?
BERGOGLIO: I chose not to. God has someone else in mind I'm certain.
MATHEWS: But you would take the job if it were offered.
BERGOGLIO: I think not.
MATHEWS: Why not.
BERGOGLIO: I believe I'm too embroiled in the secular fiasco. It is
a spiritual job and I'm a soldier. Look at the nature of power. In
Europe first and now in America, elected men have taken it upon
themselves to indebt their people to create an atmosphere of
dependency. And why? For their own selfish need to increase their own
personal power. I've been a keen observer of the effect this has on
the people, especially the poor. They are very good at creating
poverty where there is no reason to explain it. My job is try to
alleviate poverty and if that means to oppose the cause then I will
not be Pope.
MATHEWS: But you are worried you would be a spend thrift pope?
BERGOGLIO: Friend. Where did you go to school?
MATHEWS: La Salle College High School in Pennsylvania.
BERGOGLIO: And after that?
MATHEWS: College of the Holy Cross.
BERGOGLIO: They told me you were Catholic. Once elected the Pope is
by virtue of the promise of Jesus to Peter, the Pope is preserved
from the possibility of error. God would change any spend thrift
politician into a responsible Pope. I'm just saying I'm not that man.
MATHEWS: So what is your job?
BERGOGLIO: My job is to ask you? why are men creating poverty??
MATHEWS: What do you mean?
BERGOGLIO: I mean that poverty is part of the natural condition and
that is bad enough. But my task is to prevent the aggravation of this
condition. The ideology that adds to the poverty must be denounced. I
have and this is the reason I will not be Pope. I have a saying for
myself, No more poverty than God originally intended in the fall from
BERGOGLIO: It is a spiritual choice and I'm a political person. I'm
sorry. I know you will make more money from this interview if I'm
Pope. Or want to be Pope. But I'm sorry. I can't help you. God has
already chosen someone anyway. Right? You learned this in school?
MATHEWS: Yes. Well? Where are you on the issues that matter most,
issues about contraception, women priests?
BERGOGLIO: This might be a surprise to you, but I am Catholic. We
are Catholic. It isn't an issue and for you to pretend that it is
being debated goes against God.
MATHEWS: If you were Pope then you would not change anything.
BERGOGLIO: Certainly God would direct the new Pope to have more
compassion for these newly created poor. And if there is any social
justice in the Church, the new Pope would have a stern word for the
creators of the new situation.
MATHEWS: But you are staunchly orthodox on the issues of abortion,
contraception, and same-sex marriage.
BERGOGLIO: I am catholic.
MATHEWS: You were punished for opposed same-sex marriage in
Argentina . You opposed free contraception and the government exiled
you. What do you have to say about that?
BERGOGLIO: I am catholic.
MATHEWS: In the secular world, as you say, you follow the
conservative line. You oppose, uh, same-sex marriages, very popular
with young people. You are conservative on birth control. Won't that
be the doom of the Church, alienating young people who support
reality based faith?
BERGOGLIO: Since God created the world, he also created reality.
You seem to be arguing that a man can't be Catholic in reality. Son,
you are a Catholic?
MATHEWS: Yes, of course. I meant no disrespect.
BERGOGLIO: You don't have to worry about offending me.
MATHEWS: Okay, good. Can a, uh, Pope even be elected if he is
pro-choice or pro-love? I mean isn't the election sort of fixed in
favor of anti-abortion and anti-gay marriage?
BERGOGLIO: Yes, the election is fixed by God.
MATHEWS: Very witty.
BERGOGLIO: Well, you did ask.
MATHEWS: It is being reported in America that you are against
marriage equality. Is that why you feel that you can't be Pope?
BERGOGLIO: God chooses the Pope and God also made men and women
MATHEWS: But you are ...a conservative and oppose abortion!
BERGOGLIO: Friend the expression on your face gives you away.
MATHEWS: I'm sorry, I'm just trying to do my job.
BERGOGLIO: And what job is that?
MATHEWS: I've been sent to interview eight men in line for the
BERGOGLIO: And I guarantee you that they all oppose abortion. So?
BERGOGLIO: So, you feel like you need to alienate the eight from
MATHEWS: That isn't it. How can the church attract young people
when it is opposed to abortion and contraception?
BERGOGLIO: Young people are just as attracted to the truth as they
are convenience and expediency. So we will call it a draw.
MATHEWS: Doesn't the church need to modernize?
BERGOGLIO: Finally, I've met someone who will advocate publicly
painting over the Sistine Chapel with one of the contemporary street
artists. Are you sure you support this and in public?
BERGOGLIO: Forgive me, I was rude.
MATHEWS: Won't the new pope, don't these cardinals realize what
they've gotta do if they want to attract young people to the church?
BERGOGLIO: I am a cardinal.
MATHEWS: Won't the new pope, don't you and the other cardinals
realize what they must do if they want to attract young people to the
BERGOGLIO: I've explained the mysteries of the atom to rural young
people and also I've explained the Grace of God. And you know what?
They can understand both perfectly well. Frankly, I have more trouble
with adults understanding both.
MATHEWS: But they have done focus groups; if you want to spread
your message you can't have this position that's anti-gay marriage
BERGOGLIO: And you treat the church as a political institution.
MATHEWS: So we were not gonna see any kind of change when it comes
to things that matter like abortion or gay marriage?
BERGOGLIO: All eight of the men you will be talking to are Catholic.
MATHEWS: Okay, I understand. Let's talk about your controversial
stand on poverty.
BERGOGLIO: You want it to be controversial?
MATHEWS: But don't you blame various governments around the world
BERGOGLIO: Some. Yes.
MATHEWS: But you refuse to blame corporations for their role.
BERGOGLIO: Okay, they also told me you have a degree in economics.
No buyer, or seller either, enters into any exchange against his
will. It is the nature of the economy. Man is frail, and he makes
mistakes and sometimes is greedy and they enter into exchanges that
don't help them. Sometimes they become poor, but they made choices.
There is nothing the Church can do except try to educate people to
become good consumers. Chiefly, for me, it is an education solution
on that side. And the Church has more schools around the globe than
any other faith. I say teach the people to save their souls, and also
teach them how not to become poor. And now not to allow the
government to trick them into poverty.
MATHEWS: And you blame government.
BERGOGLIO: No, I blame the self-serving politicians.
MATHEWS: So your solution to poverty is to change the nature of
BERGOGLIO: Please feel free to broadcast this; I don't want to be
pope. Friend, you are a socialist and your friends are socialists.
And you are the reason for 70 years of misery in Russia and Europe
now is seizing in pain from your policies. You believe in the
redistribution of wealth and it makes entire populations poor. You
want to nationalize everything and bring every human endeavor under
your control. You destroy a man's incentive to take care of his very
own family, a crime against nature and nature's God. You want social
control over populations and incrementally you are making everything
against the law. Together this ideology creates more poverty today
than all the corporations you vilify have in the history of man.
MATHEWS: I've never heard such from a Cardinal. I'm not sure if you
are here to help yourself or disqualify yourself.
BERGOGLIO: Please air this interview. (they did not) People being
dominated by socialists need to know we don't all have to be poor.
Some poverty is part of our being cast out of the Garden of Eden. But
look at the empire of dependency created by Hugo Chavez. Promising
them, tricking them into worship of government and his very own
person. Giving them fish but not allowing them to fish. If a
fisherman does develop a talent today in Latin America; he is
castigated and his catch stolen by the socialists. He stops?
MATHEWS: You would be the first pope from the Americas.
BERGOGLIO: He stops fishing. I will not be pope, but yes I am from
MATHEWS: And you didn't want to be pope?
BERGOGLIO: God didn't want me to be pope.
MATHEWS: Perhaps he changed his mind.
MATHEWS: Okay, I'm sorry. I feel like we are getting off on the
wrong path. I'm sorry.
BERGOGLIO: Yes, let's be productive.
MATHEWS: You are a classic conservative Catholic theologian?
BERGOGLIO: Of course there's politics clearly in the Curia
throughout the Vatican, but in terms of church teaching, it's not a
political institution. It's religious.
MATHEWS: I heard people, in fact, media people, "Is this cardinal,
is he a liberal? Is he a conservative?"
BERGOGLIO: Tell them please, He's a Catholic. It's no more
complicated than that. Catholicism is what it is. You don't have to
believe it; you may not. You don't have to follow it; you may not go
to Mass. But it's not up to you to modernize us.
MATHEWS: You see no room for reform?
BERGOGLIO: It's not up to any religion, although some do this,
'cause they want the money. They want the membership. But the
Catholic Church doesn't do it. It's not up to them to bend and shape
and mold itself to accommodate the shrinking depravity of a worldwide
culture. It's to provide the exact opposite. It's to provide a beacon
out of depravity, socialism and sin, among other things.
MATHEWS: If pope you would be bad news for the left.
BERGOGLIO: I won't be pope. But I am opposed to abortion. I'm
opposed to euthanasia. The pro-choice movement is a culture of death.
I oppose the demonic same-sex marriage. I oppose gay adoption on the
grounds that it is discriminatory to the child. I was exiled by the
Cristina Kirchner government, but I hold no grudge. How is this bad
MATHEWS: John Paul II rescued you?
BERGOGLIO: He made me the archbishop of Buenos Aires. Yes.
MATHEWS: And so you feel like you owe the Right some sort of
BERGOGLIO: There are many values? and many types of people. Perhaps
it is my interest in mathematics, but I'm the type of human who is
interested most in the truth. God gave me a healthy love for the
truth. Loyalty is only a virtue if in support of the truth or another
MATHEWS: Cristina Kirchner said you held a grudge.
BERGOGLIO: Funny I've never spoken her name. Not once. And it is a
battle of ideas not a battle of two or more people. I'm only
concerned with ideas.
MATHEWS: She said you refused to speak up for civil rights
BERGOGLIO: As a spiritual leader, I opposed cultural modernization,
and so I became a political enemy. I understand politics as well as I
MATHEWS: And the Jesuits, they were eager to cast you out, which
BERGOGLIO: So you are implying that I'm a vengeful priest?
MATHEWS: Do you feel that you need to erase the progress recently
made in Latin America?
BERGOGLIO: I say poverty. You say progress.
MATHEWS: Let's talk about poverty.
BERGOGLIO: Sure, there is voluntary poverty that is virtuous. Many
understood the nobility of making themselves independent of the
fleeting things of earth. They are distractions from our pursuit of
the truth. I have no problem with this. I only oppose involuntary
MATHEWS: That is what I thought you would say.
MATHEWS: Because you are a capitalist right?
BERGOGLIO: Yes, I think capital is needed to build a factory, a
parochial school, or a church or hospital, all. Do you oppose
factories or churches or hospitals?
MATHEWS: Of course not but don't you think the capital is sucked
out of peoples hands by greedy business types to pay for these
BERGOGLIO: No, I think people agree, through their economic
choices, that some of their money goes to build these. Capital
building should be voluntary. Only when the politician confiscates
their wealth, to build government factories, government schools,
government hospitals; only then do the people not agree. Money given
voluntarily is legitimate to build with. Money coerced from the
people is not legitimate to build with, because it isn't given
MATHEWS: You are opposed to all government?
BERGOGLIO: No of course not. But it isn't the seat of wisdom in any
society I've seen in my life. The best government was created by the
Americans, in which they admitted that people are endowed by their
creator and most of the administration of society was left to the
relationship between God and man. However, slowly that has been
eroded by the atheists on the left, who would replace man's
relationship with God with a new relationship with an opportunist
like Hugo Chavez.
MATHEWS: I just found it fascinating that you were willing to stand
up to an entire government in Argentina. You were cast aside.
Didn't you care about your career?
BERGOGLIO: Yes, there are people who cave to worldly authority.
MATHEWS: But you didn't?
BERGOGLIO: No, I changed nothing. How did I have the power to
change anything in church teaching? My opinion? The democrats,
seeking votes, only wanted me to change my opinion and legitimize
their decadence. I did not, as evidenced by the fact that I was
teaching high school math in small isolated town.
MATHEWS: I'm sorry that happened to you.
BERGOGLIO: Why don't you feel for others oppressed for their
interest in freedom.
MATHEWS: Freedom isn't punished anywhere, is it?
BERGOGLIO: Certainly it is.
MATHEWS: In Latin America?
BERGOGLIO: I'm afraid Latin America is lost. The people of the
entire area are controlled by a bloc of militant socialist regimes in
the region, most prominently Venezuela, Ecuador, Bolivia and
Nicaragua. They have a gun pointed at their head. So their heart is
now captured. Who will save them at this point?
MATHEWS: So the game is over. Checkmate?
BERGOGLIO: Friend, I've been studying America this month, before
the Pope chose to resign. You must not have fear at speaking the
truth. It is for the salvation of souls and the recovery of Thomas
Jefferson's people. America must not fall to the new painted
communism. Even the low information voters don't want America to be
sold into slavery. I pray they cast out the money changers in their
government! What manner of government is there that condones sin?
Abomination upon abominationgiving monies for the murder of
children, giving monies for the murder of the elderly! You are an
American. Your government, My child, has been infiltrated by men of
MATHEWS: These are pretty radical ideas.
BERGOGLIO: No. Perhaps reactionary. Radical means something
different. But a very long time ago, Khrushchev warned, that we
cannot expect Americans to fly from capitalism to communism, but we
can assist their elected leaders in giving Americans small injections
of socialism until they suddenly awake to find out they have
Communism. This is what is happening now in an ancient bastion of
freedom. How can America save Latin America when they are slaves to
the government themselves?
MATHEWS: I'm having a hard time digesting most of this.
BERGOGLIO: The truth can be painful. You look angry; do you want to
stop or ask a question? But you have created a new type of state, the
so-called welfare state. This has happened in order to respond to the
needs of the politically created poor. However, intervening directly
is depriving the original society of its responsibility. Families
escape responsibility in the welfare state. And churches even escape
responsibility. People stop giving to charity and see every poor
person as the government's problem. I am a Catholic priest and there
are no poor for me to take care of, they are made permanently poor
and the property of the politicians.
MATHEWS: I'm not sure this interview is going to work.
BERGOGLIO: You asked and now you will listen, my son. The social
assistance state leads to a loss of human energies and an inordinate
increase of public agencies, which are dominated more by bureaucratic
thinking than by real concern for helping people. Needs are best
understood and satisfied by people who are closest to them who act as
neighbors and parish members to those in need. It should be added
that certain kinds of demands often call for a response which is not
simply material but which is capable of perceiving the deeper human
need. This is not to mention the welfare states excesses and abuses.
MATHEWS: I think we are done.
BERGOGLIO: Wait. If I speak on the ordination of women, on
celibacy, on divorce, will you air this interview and my message?
MATHEWS: No, we are done.
BERGOGLIO: Partially what irritates me to the core is the media's
inability to look at anything without looking into the cause of the
various problems. People are made poor so they will vote for the very
candidates that made them poor.
MATHEWS: Have a nice day and thanks for your time.